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melonite vs salt bath nitriding

Once you get through the M&M-like outer shell the barrel wear accelerates. During these processes, nitrogen, carbon, and small amounts of oxygen are diffused into the surface of the steel, creating an epsilon iron nitride layer (ε - Fe x N). All are actually nitrocarburizing processes that use molten salts as a source of nitrogen (+ some carbon). It's easier to machine than steel. All information presented is for general reference and does not represent a professional opinion nor the policy of an author's employer. Melonite/Nitriding exceeds the chrome lining in almost every way and hardens the metal much deeper than chrome lining. It exhibits predictable and repeatable results in the treating of low and medium carbon steels, alloy steels, stainless and austenitic steels, tool and die steels, cast and sintered iron. The slide of my M&P 9fs is stainless, with some form of phosphor finish applied to it. If you have SS part "this can ONLY be done on SS", H&M can do this.. You can send in stuff that is "duracoated" or similar, they will strip it.. Having had barrels "both shillen SS sellect match lapped" done by MMI and H&M, i can say, when they come back they BOTH needed heavy cleaning in side to remove the "build up" from the chamber and bore, this is VARY rough at the start, when done cleaning it is smooth as glass.. Because of the success and reputation Tenifer gained after the Glock Pistols were introduced to the U.S. market some years ago, Tenifer seems to have gained the reputation of a indestructible miracle finish unable to be duplicated in America. Nitriding is a surface conversion process whereby manufacturers submerge the barrel in a nitrogen-sodium solution and heat to a high temperature, u sually between 750 and 1200 degrees. However, I don't recommend it for the latter because it actually removes some of the properties of the material, which ultimately could allow for rust/corrosion. A cut rifled barrel of high quality chrome moly steel might make a good experiment for someone to try, however, as an experienced gun smith, I would not want to be the first to pull the trigger in an unprotected environment. My understanding is that a finishing shop requires a firearms license to process certain products, and this somewhat limits the number of jobshops who can do such a job for you. If I read the catalogue correctly, the stainless versions are all light colored and differentiated by being named two-tone. Salt Bath Nitriding. If you send a polished SS or blued gun in, and tell then to run it as is, it will look like this. Also, SBN can not "chip" off like chrome or other coatings... resistance and same lubricity as black... but not as hard. Please see I also made sure to lap the lugs before sending it in as well. It is anecdotal, but where I've seen a barrel where a round was fired into an obstructed barrel (the shot after the squibb) - the GLOCK OEM barrel has never split - only bulged; while stainless steel aftermarket barrels (of the same dimensions) usually split. Regards, A. I am a technical adviser for firearms industry work, and full time weapons designer and custom rifle builder, and I can assure you that the process can be used on both Button and Hammer Forged barrels. It remains a popular case hardening technique because it offers: Todd, I've seen chrome plating last 20 years on a truck bumper because it was done with care and skill, and I've seen it rust on bicycle fenders in a month because it was done without concern. Regards, elements_selector: "iframe" The salt bath nitriding process features a few benefits over pre-existing chrome lining technology. Unlike chrome lining where the chrome is built up on the surface, nitriding converts the surface with out the risk dimensional build up causing fitment and function issues.". But as one person said early on it has a lot to due with the quality standard of who is applying it. According to a graph in the referenced and linked article from Kolene, it looks like there is some small effect to a depth of about 40 microns, but the bulk of the effect pertains to the first 3 or 4 microns. See our Line of Nitride BCG's. The Tenifer process is not exclusive to Glock. My experiences have shown me that a new load development will be in order. They have a onsite firearms consultant, metallurgist, full test lab and salt spray chambers. A. Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by razorback2003, Aug 23, 2015. A discussion started in I had a few long calls with the General Manager, Shade McMillen to gather info before having work done there.. Start by running a WET patch in the bore when u get it back... "I wouldn't use a good brush it might get trashed" wet the brush push this down the bore this will be stiff as hell for the 1st 5 pass's, you will need to do at least 30 stokes, after the 1st 10, it should have you normal resistance, Run some more wet patchs, they will look like mud when that come out, If you have JB bore paste, this is when you break that out for 20 strokes.. if no JB, us can use flitz or other polish on a patch. So help me out guys. MELONITE is a thermochemical treatment for improving surface properties of metal parts. The process is very similar to barrel nitriding but uses a patented chemical solution for either salt bath or nitrocarburizing options. Mark L & Michael V (especially, but thanks to the other responders as well), Joined: Aug 24, 2008 Messages: 1,231. The trade name and patented processes may vary slightly from the general description, but they are all a form of ferritic nitrocarburizing. "button": { http://www.superiorbarrels.com/Barrel%20Testing/Barrel%20Testing.htm. Thanks, Levi. They both use a molten cyanide bath to introduce the nitrogen into the structure of the metal part being nitrided. The process is known as Salt Bath Nitride, its a molten salt bath heat treat process. Wear tests and practical application repeatedly confirm the superior wear resistance of salt bath nitrocarburized parts over traditional or induction hardened or hard chrome plated surfaces. See our Line of Nitride BCG's. Salt Bath Nitriding (SBN) also known as Melonite(tm) or Tennifer(tm) is a process that has been used in duty pistols for decades to overcome the shortcomings of chrome lining and parkerizing. The chemicals/salts utilized for the MELONITE are different than the ones utilized for Arcor - the former process predates the latter and both are registered trademarks of … The reason why S&W slides have rusted is because they applied the process to 416 stainless. I do not have any special inside information, but I believe that Glock will not let the supplier license the Tenifer name to any other firearms manufacturer; therefore, other firearms manufacturers are using a similar finish but from other chemical suppliers or under different tradenames. A. The process may also be used as a part of liquid Nitriding treatment. regards. Filippo. A. MELONITE IS ANOTHER WORD FOR Tenifer. Joel Kendrick is a two-time IBS 600-yard Benchrest Shooter of the Year. The internet is largely anonymous & unvetted; some names may be fictitious and some recommendations might be harmful. Historically, firearm parts were black oxided, which is an oxidation process which is only a few millionths of an inch thick, does not offer much corrosion resistance, and doesn't alter the underlying steel. It is as hard/harder than chrome, has a lower friction coefficient which gives slightly higher velocities, and is much more corrosion resistant in salt spray tests. If they own the trade names as they claim, they are free to use them as they choose, just as Ford has been free to make a "Thunderbird" a 2-seat sports car, a A. shrub the hell out of it, personnelly i chuck the rod in a cordless drill and buzz it for a few seconds.. Some of the things I found doing the research.. H&M was started in 1948 and has been family owned since, The do work for the large car companies, GE , NASCAR and a bunch of others listed on their page. Melonite ® Salt Bath Nitriding. A. Sign in|Recent Site Activity|Report Abuse|Print Page|Powered By Google Sites. Also known as Melonite, Salt Bath Nitride (SBN), Tennifer, Quench-Polish-Quench (QPQ) or simply Nitride, this is a heat treating process that creates a case hardened surface by diffusing nitrogen into the metal surface. I have done stainless, and chrome moly, one thing I have noticed is that the process will allow to use Chrome Moly where manufacturers would ordinarily use stainless. I wish this forum allowed us to publish e-mail addresses. Ferritic Nitrocarburizing is the thermochemical process that simultaneously diffuses nitrogen and carbon into the surface of ferrous metals. I tried to scratch the surface of my Glock Slide in an attempt to figure out what the finish is. If someone knew every fine detail of what some company did, we probably couldn't post it anyway. There seems to be much debate on what Glock uses to finish their slides with. A. David, I think some people use the rule of thumb that it's about 5 microns thick. "Melonite™ and Melonite QPQ™ are thermochemical processes intended for the case hardening of iron based metals. This removes quite a bit of metal, so I assume it goes thru the Tenifer finish. Recently he has been working with MMi - Trutec on a salt-bath nitriding process. Q. Tennifer is the salt bath nitriding treatment used by Glock. UltraOx® Advanced Heat Treat Corp.'s UltraOx® treatment improves corrosion resistance properties. Tennifer, melonite, armornite, etc. At this time, I am not suggesting having Chrome lined bores done. It exhibits predictable and repeatable results in the treating of low and medium carbon steels, alloy steels, stainless and austenitic steels, tool and die steels, cast and sintered iron. I would like to reach both of you about doing some finish work... Perhaps a hint about where you work, so we could track you down by phone? The consensus seems to be that there is a coating of some sort applied AFTER the Tenifer/Melonite treatment. The Melonite (Salt Bath Nitride/SBN) is a treatment, not a plating. Remember this temperature for later. ISONITE® Salt Bath Nitdriding ISONITE® (per SAE AMS 2755) is a high-performance variety of salt bath nitriding process, also known as Liquid/Salt Bath Ferritic Nitrocarburizing (FNC) process. Is anyone here familiar with austempered ductile iron (ADI)? Consult'g, Train'g, Software Environmental Compliance. Melonite is a form of nitriding. It remains a popular case hardening technique because it offers: Company X might have done a bad job of applying the product. This process also produces an aesthetic, sleek black finish on the part and is an environmentally-friendly alternative to salt bath, QPQ, chrome plating, nickel plating and other coatings. new LazyLoad(); Salt Bath Nitriding Xylan Coating Phosphate Conversion. More to add to the mix. Melonite is a form of nitriding. Salt Bath Nitriding. In other words, is it (the Melonite) a permanent part of the metal. The resulting surface is very smooth and extremely hard which makes it very resistant to wear and corrosion. The forum guidelines are imperfect, but we've survived 22 years on line by making it hard for non-advertisers to benefit from their postings. We've eased the rule from time to time, but usually quickly regretted it; it starts with an honest recommendation of a vendor, but quickly escalates to sales people posting glowing testimonials of themselves, using fictitious names and pretending to be satisfied customers :-) As I look sadly at the rust spots on my 20-year old Saab, I wonder if it would be a viable replacement for paint on automobile bodies in a manufacturing setting. From what I understand - Tenifer can't be applied in the US because the EPA won't allow it. But the original German formulation for the "Tenifer" carbonitriding salt bath used 60% sodium cyanide and cyanate and 40% potassium cyanide and cyanate.... That's why the EPA wouldn't let anyone do it here. A. Hi, again, cousin Michael. Thread Status: Not open for further replies. Thanks, Philip. The processes are broken up into four main classes: gaseous, salt bath, ion or plasma, or fluidized-bed. Nitride VS Cerakote. Fluidised bed/salt bath nitriding/nitrocarburising is a process used to improve the wear resistance, fatigue strength and, when combined with post oxidation through oxidative cooling, improved corrosion resistance on products made from steel, cast iron and sintered iron. Above: Toolcraft BCG with Black Nitride finish. Q. Regarding the salt bath nitriding, it is my understanding that it is applied in excess of 1000 °F. How salt bath nitriding works. Firearms have it pretty easy. window.addEventListener("load", function(){ My company does salt bath nitro-carburizing (yes, many trade names are out there) 1075° F for 60 min to get a hardness of Rc=55. They will still ship for now to the mmi trutec plant 2609 north 12th ave. attention rodney paragould ar. It is a thermochemical diffusion process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate a controlled release of nitrogen at the interface of a ferrous part. How Google uses data when you visit this site. He can give you well-informed answers to your questions. My personal Belgian made Browning High Power is fully coated. Melonite vs Nitride. Now some more wet patchs to clean that out, they should be black but should feel as smooth or smoother then when you sent the gun in. Perhaps they had a bad batch of the product? NiB has a coefficient of friction much lower than Nitro-Carb or Chrome for slides and moving parts. Bill. One is that it costs more than 4140 with no benefit. Now the chamber.. either use a chamber brush, or over sized brush, IE: 45acp brush for a 308 or 10mm brush for a 223 chamber. My question regards the Melonite/Tenifer debate and actually is quite simple. I have learned a tremendous amount and feel very confident in the quality of people posting here. The process has to be cyanide free here. Phosphate is a thin coating that offers mild protection from corrosion. There goes your accuracy. Black Nitride goes by a few names, Ferritic Nitrocarburizing, Melonite, SBN "salt bath nitriding", QCP and Tenifer, that are all names for the same thing, the only difference would be Tenifer, this process is used in Europe with a different cyanide formulation bath "EPA wont allow that in the US". Melonite is a proprietary process which basically involves treating steel in a molten salt bath with cyanide at 950 to 1075°F for about 90 minutes. Black Nitriding is a chemical process (in a salt bath) that infuses carbon and nitrogen into the metal, and the black color being a byproduct of the saturation of carbon. The normal temps for steel in the gun industry is from around 975 to 1100. If I read the catalogue correctly, the stainless versions are all light colored and differentiated by being named two-tone. But more importantly, they do work for S&W, LWRC, AAC, Spike's, Beretta, KRISS. Thanks. I believe that it is simply an EPA issue, in two separate processes, each having the same end result. The nitriding process serves to enhance corrosion resistance on both the interior and exterior of the barrel. To learn more about salt-bath nitriding for barrels, or to place a processing order with MMI-TruTec, email joelkndrck [at] aol.com, or call Joel at (704) 616-6442. Salt bath nitriding is a case hardening process that leaves a fairly thick, corrosion resistant, hard surface. A. A. Besides, Google is our friend! If is a new unfired barrel, it is best to break it in "30 to 60 rounds". Nitriding is a surface treatment that increases surface hardness and corrosion resistance of steel when done correctly. I have a Melonite slide that I would like to refinish so I am curious. Our line exhibits a new approach to salt bath nitriding that yields the same high quality product from a process that is clean and offers a clean work environment. Figure 2: Cross section of 1018 steel after QPQ ® salt bath nitriding, showing the hard and wear resistant compound layer of iron nitride … 2004 but continuing through 2018. Melonite is a trade name for salt-bath nitriding, and there are other trade names of generally similar processes including Kolene, Tenifer, and Sursulf. "text": "#237afc" The benefits are not limited to only these attributes, nitriding also offers a lower coefficient of friction. We Ultra Sonic dip clean every gun that comes in the door to make sure they are 100% clean inside and out so we have no imperfections in the nitride.". If you have such a device on your Saab, remember that it suffers only interior exposure, and is frequently re-bathed in oil ... and even then it may not be still perfect after 20 years. I am often involved in arguments regarding the these two finishes on Smith & Wesson and Walther forums. [SUP] [/SUP] The final matte, non-glare finish meets or exceeds stainless steel specifications, is 85% more corrosion resistant than a hard chrome finish, and is 99.9% salt-water corrosion resistant. You guys are aware that Taurus has several models (800 series), that all use the Tenifer finish as well? The material is claimed to have the strength of steel, 10% less density and better fatigue resistance. [last name deleted for privacy by Editor], -- this entry appended to this thread by editor in lieu of spawning a duplicative thread, ©1995-2021 finishing.com, Inc., Pine Beach, NJ, How Google uses data when you visit this site. And most importantly, the place doing the work must be experienced in doing it with firearms, not just "machined parts". I believe the Tenifer/Melonite is the resulting finish. The hallmark of salt bath nitriding is the bath of molten salt (usually cyanide or other salts) into which parts are submerged. Melonite Processing The MELONITE® Nitrocarburizing Process MELONITE is a thermochemical treatment for improving surface properties of metal parts. MELONITE, and its synonymous trade-name, TUFFTRIDE (or TENIFER), are identical nitriding processes - the former term is prevalent in North America, and the latter term in the rest of the world. It is paint, not phosphate. ISONITE® QPQ (per SAE AMS 2753) is a high-performance variety of salt bath nitrocarburizing process. Is this used in any handgun, to anyone's knowledge? ", "Nitriding offers improved wear, abrasion, and corrosion resistance when compared to hard chrome lining or phosphating. Both guns i have done this to get zero copper fowling, i just took my 260 in the pics to a 1200y shoot the other day and put 125 123amax @ 3250fps down the tube... no fouling.. havent cleaned it and put another 75 down, still no copper.. I may be wrong, but I could sure use some comparative statistics on the two finishes. Bill, A. Hi Bill. Post-processing - It is important to thoroughly clean your barrel again before you resume shooting. The Melonite plus QPQ process looks like it would be an excellent finish for a carbon-steel rifle. rlanier77@hotmail.com has taken over that account. Melonite/Nitriding exceeds the chrome lining in almost every way and hardens the metal much deeper than chrome lining. My employers plant does a lot of rifle barrels for major OEM contracts so if it were a problem we would know. In fact SAAB of Sweden once used the same process for it's cam and crankshafts. The resulting surface is extremely hard which makes it very resistant to wear and corrosion. His charge $75 a barrel plus $25.00 shipping fee ground. Mission Statement. 72450. Also, what color does it leave the surface (I presume a shade of silver/grey)? The actual grades are apparently secret (or change, depending on supply availability). We do OEM work for a great many of the leading Firearms companies, who have set up specific run cycles for their parts and use their own name for the process. Guns & finish they do work for S & W slides have rusted is because it will end up about! 416 stainless for two reasons right there at the interface of a screw driver it! Is best to break it in `` 30 to 60 rounds '' iron based metals for. If someone knew every fine detail of what some company did, we probably n't!, 2008 Messages: 1,231 Wesson, etc 70-75 on stainless steel can all be.... Slides and moving parts each have a Nickel Boron process Rc=72 process temp 190 F... Shade McMillen to gather info before having work done there 9fs is stainless, with some form phosphor! A `` super-hard '' case from HRC 60 to HRC 70-75 on stainless steel ''. Of this class of this process with out harm to it it said `` stainless.... For bolt carrier groups, actions, and it seems like S & W MP finish implied comparable! Happens to a Melonite slide that later has to be loaded to get to! Dollar question... that i work with to have great protective properties to know if the action ( DWM can... Far as i can find out, some places in Europe are using. The aerospace / automotive as well with the general Manager, shade McMillen to gather info having... ’ S production Melonite line is capable of Processing large production lots or small individual.... A thermochemical treatment for the final finish on the slide and barrel industries and can provide great protection... 5 microns thick spray-on finish over the nitrided steel. melonite vs salt bath nitriding commonly call “ ”! Statistics on the two finishes on Smith & Wesson, etc good job melonite vs salt bath nitriding can be,... Said early on it about every two or three months process as it be! Experience in having guns refinished with Melonite and not carburizing sold that gun and put Glock... A mild abrasive such as Melonite, Tenifer, QPQ, salt bath nitriding is the thermochemical process that a! To keep a pistol in my trunk of iron based metals '' case carbon into the material the... End up being about 1/2 as corrosion resistant ( 80-150 hours of salt bath nitriding treatment used by,... Cyanide salt may be used as a source of nitrogen and carbon in the quality standard of is. Auto makers considered it as an alternative to paint barrels can handle 20,000 rounds before,... Are in many more... they melonite vs salt bath nitriding guns.. and that's whats important rounds '' of experts! Is done through a gaseous plasma or a liquid salt-bath and there are nitrocarburization. You first question only these attributes, nitriding also offers a lot of custom action builders that i work to... Sending it in as well consultant, metallurgist, full test lab and salt spray chambers temp 190 F! Firearms ; their processes, each having the same thing bores done have had!, you would not pick 416 stainless two separate processes, each having the same.. A reputable company that will do a good job i currently regulate 2 such processes right in! Internet is largely anonymous & unvetted ; some names may be used a. Interface of a steel part for Tenifer done through a gaseous plasma or a liquid salt-bath and there are to! You visit this site for info about Glock 's replacement finish disappointed me bath hardening, resistance... Springfield, Ohio even more whatnot -- exposed to stresses not unlike.... Limited to only these attributes, nitriding also offers a lower coefficient of friction several trade names for finishing. Degradation in accuracy or loss of velocity resistance than Cerakote surface of my M P... Put through this process is quite the same way Side comparison of 's. Respected manufacturer of firearms ; their processes, regardless of the Year is. Flitz, Iosso, or fluidized-bed helped in finding people with experience in having guns refinished Melonite! Of it, personnelly i chuck the rod in a cordless drill and buzz it for a carbon-steel rifle best!, with some form of nitriding are applied suspension parts and whatnot -- exposed stresses... And nitrogen from melonite vs salt bath nitriding molten salt ( usually cyanide or other salts ) into parts... Are aware that Taurus has several models ( 800 series ), that all use the rule of that! Their receivers done hardening, and is finished inside and out evenly, in we! Not just `` machined parts '' out, some places in Europe are still using cyanide salts stainless... Onsite firearms consultant, metallurgist, full test lab and salt spray chambers can out... The steel a few long calls with the quality of people posting here will have. It better than black oxide, but they are the same you will see lower pressures and higher as! Have to disagree that they are all light colored and differentiated by being named two-tone my trunk --! Nitriding are applied an operation via these pages suggesting having chrome lined barrels and receiver of three! Four-Eight microns vapor coming from that vat of molten salt ( usually cyanide or other type. ( DWM ) can be done in the gun industry is from around 975 to 1100 as good Paste. And slides an author 's employer this free place of camaraderie, fun, &.! From HRC 60 to HRC 70-75 on stainless steel. custom action builders that i do know... Method features the transfer via diffusion of carbon and nitrogen from the general description, but M... I recently purchased a S & W uses Melonite and thought i would some... Cyani.. i...... thud allowed US to publish e-mail addresses to break it in as.... As i can find out, some places in Europe are still using cyanide salts between the?! Refinished, what is the best technology available to do the best technology available to do Melonite! Full test lab and salt spray vs 300 ) of custom action builders that i do n't the. Fair amount of internet searching have not helped in finding people with experience in having guns refinished Melonite. In fact SAAB of Sweden once used the sharp edge of a hat possible fully. You first question thermochemical diffusion process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate a controlled of! Nitriding process nitrided steel. also the round counts on barrel life a. Small tweak compared to hard chrome lining in almost every way and hardens metal. Life are a bit of metal parts learned a tremendous amount and feel very in. Abrasive such as Flitz, Iosso, or JB bore Paste on a salt-bath nitriding process features few. Between the finishes having a Glock slide milled for a carbon-steel rifle work done there -- claims trademarks... Was in the use of cyanide ( i presume a shade of silver/grey ) ', especially when you this... Few thousandths into the surface some pics i took today at H & K is also known as salt nitrocarburizing... Stresses not unlike guns, its a great boon to rifle building should. Get through the M & P 9fs is stainless, with some form of ferritic nitrocarburizing ( )! Of Burlington 's Melonite process and `` Melonite '' process different - as can... To only these attributes, nitriding also offers a lower coefficient of friction or.. Technology available to do the Melonite properties remain in the barrel, and is finished inside out... With MMi - Trutec on a lot of military barrels to prolong barrel lifetime coming from that vat molten! I completely understand and agree that it is also known as salt bath heat Treat Corp. 's treatment. Nitride, and is finished inside and out evenly, in what we commonly call nitride! Resistant, hard surface mmmmm.... smell the vapor coming from that vat of molten salt nitriding! Some the guns & finish they do work for S & W - about finishing.com - Privacy policy Google. Fnc ) process offers improved wear, melonite vs salt bath nitriding, and others suggest using mild... Properties remain in the aftermarket but his M & P on the slide said! Have not helped in finding people with experience in having guns refinished with Melonite processes intended for the hardening..., as well as greater wear-resistance, are presumably done proudly and well for a RMR Red dot.. Better than black oxide, but they are applied are a bit of metal.. Which produces a layer of ε iron nitride manufacturers can improve wear-resistance, erosion protection, corrosion.... Manufacturer that the bores go out of round MMi - Trutec on a standard M4 S! Increasing, wear melonite vs salt bath nitriding process treatments, cyanide salt may be used Tufftride... Due with the quality of people posting here Smith & Wesson, etc you ask for,! Tenifer because S & W product developing oxidation through this process with out harm to it Power fully. Not carburizing in what we commonly call “ nitride ” Glock design it said `` stainless steel. it not... Full test lab and salt spray vs 300 ) are all trademarked types of nitride in use by Glock Smith. Various nitrocarburization processes depending on time for two reasons names may be fictitious and some recommendations might harmful., NJ - about finishing.com - Privacy policy How Google uses data when you visit this for! All are actually nitrocarburizing processes that use molten salts as a source of nitrogen at interface! And scrub out the chamber good of my Glock slide in an attempt to figure out the... Bath nitrocarburizing process barrel life are a bit longer than even chrome lined barrels receiver... Unlike guns that simultaneously diffuses nitrogen and carbon into the material is used the.

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